Post by Tzalaran on May 20, 2009 8:56:53 GMT -6
from the MSNBC blog First Read, posted here in case it doesn't get through moderation.
Stick your ratings where the sun doesn't shine. What, is this some kind of high school thing with you people? Being popular has no bearing on whether you're right or not. Obama is popular - Cheney is right.
Mitch Madsen, SC (Sent Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:59 AM)
*****************************************************
Any justification for the assertion that Cheney is right? no.... thats cause there isn't any justification for Cheney's actions or words. He is dead wrong morally, legally, and philosophically.
The basic moral argument that Cheney is making is that "The ends (keeping america safe) justify the means (torture, lying about intelligence to start a war, domestic surveillance that goes against the right to privacy)" This argument in any other situation has been shot down, and because of the actions Cheney promoted the moral fiber of our country has suffered.
legally, the Cheney arguments didn't work for Nixon, WWII Japanese officers and leaders, or Nazi Germany. Why should there be a change just because the 'enemy' in this conflict has adopted neo-guerilla tactics that U.S. forces were not prepared to handle the way we could have been? there shouldn't is the only acceptable answer.
Philosophically, the Cheney argument fails for the same reason as the moral argument fails. The philosophy of the Bush Doctrine and preemptive war is erroneous because until the nation performs an attack, the declaration of war has not been made. As the lone superpower, it was more advantageous for the U.S. to avoid conflict, and act as a moral authority than the global position we now find ourselves in: 'is the big bully going to pick on another country for perceived economic gains?'
Now, i'll not say the president Obama is perfect, as there are things he is doing that i do not agree with (DADT, Wall Street, selective release of Bush era information), but there is no possible way to objectively say that he is wrong in this situation and Cheney is right because of these logical fallacies employed to justify the bush/Cheney legacy.
For Cheney to do the right thing, all he has to come out and say is: "After 9/11, the shock of the attack spurred paranoia and a desire to keep the citizens of this country safe by any means necessary. In hindsight, we became too extreme in our methodology and lost sight of the spirit of the constitution in our defense of this nation. For that, we are sorry."
a simple, sincere apology goes a long way in bridging divides like we currently see. any child can regurgitate excuses for behavior, it takes a man/woman to admit when they were wrong, and accept responsibility for their actions.
*** Just askin’: By the way, we have this one question for the GOP straw-man argument on Gitmo: So is living near a prison with CONVICTED rapists or murderers safer than living next to a prison with SUSPECTED terrorists?***
this is the most insightful comment i have seen on first read, and thank you for pointing out the logical fallacy of straw man that the conservatives are using in this instance. The answer is no, but the heart of the matter comes in painting these suspected terrorists as something so foreign to our experience, thereby dehumanizing them to make them an easier target for discrimination. it is the same first step in all justification for inhumanity to our fellow man. "They aren't like us, therefore they don't feel things like we do and don't think like we do, therefore they don't deserve to live." This is just flat out not true, and the actions of the U.S. government in the region of their birth shines light on why they feel and think the way they do about americans. We have allowed our government to exploit, covertly assist when beneficial and then cut and run leaving them a barren wasteland with no hope of progress instead of showing them a better way of life through our modern society. This selfishness gives basis for their anti-american arguments, just as the models of industrial revolution factories gave justification to communist regimes as to the evils of unchecked capitalism. it doesn't make the arguments correct, but the basis of propaganda isn't to be correct, but to be persuasive.
i'll leave you with a quote i read the other day in a book that left a lasting impression on me:
"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." Heinlein
Stick your ratings where the sun doesn't shine. What, is this some kind of high school thing with you people? Being popular has no bearing on whether you're right or not. Obama is popular - Cheney is right.
Mitch Madsen, SC (Sent Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:59 AM)
*****************************************************
Any justification for the assertion that Cheney is right? no.... thats cause there isn't any justification for Cheney's actions or words. He is dead wrong morally, legally, and philosophically.
The basic moral argument that Cheney is making is that "The ends (keeping america safe) justify the means (torture, lying about intelligence to start a war, domestic surveillance that goes against the right to privacy)" This argument in any other situation has been shot down, and because of the actions Cheney promoted the moral fiber of our country has suffered.
legally, the Cheney arguments didn't work for Nixon, WWII Japanese officers and leaders, or Nazi Germany. Why should there be a change just because the 'enemy' in this conflict has adopted neo-guerilla tactics that U.S. forces were not prepared to handle the way we could have been? there shouldn't is the only acceptable answer.
Philosophically, the Cheney argument fails for the same reason as the moral argument fails. The philosophy of the Bush Doctrine and preemptive war is erroneous because until the nation performs an attack, the declaration of war has not been made. As the lone superpower, it was more advantageous for the U.S. to avoid conflict, and act as a moral authority than the global position we now find ourselves in: 'is the big bully going to pick on another country for perceived economic gains?'
Now, i'll not say the president Obama is perfect, as there are things he is doing that i do not agree with (DADT, Wall Street, selective release of Bush era information), but there is no possible way to objectively say that he is wrong in this situation and Cheney is right because of these logical fallacies employed to justify the bush/Cheney legacy.
For Cheney to do the right thing, all he has to come out and say is: "After 9/11, the shock of the attack spurred paranoia and a desire to keep the citizens of this country safe by any means necessary. In hindsight, we became too extreme in our methodology and lost sight of the spirit of the constitution in our defense of this nation. For that, we are sorry."
a simple, sincere apology goes a long way in bridging divides like we currently see. any child can regurgitate excuses for behavior, it takes a man/woman to admit when they were wrong, and accept responsibility for their actions.
*** Just askin’: By the way, we have this one question for the GOP straw-man argument on Gitmo: So is living near a prison with CONVICTED rapists or murderers safer than living next to a prison with SUSPECTED terrorists?***
this is the most insightful comment i have seen on first read, and thank you for pointing out the logical fallacy of straw man that the conservatives are using in this instance. The answer is no, but the heart of the matter comes in painting these suspected terrorists as something so foreign to our experience, thereby dehumanizing them to make them an easier target for discrimination. it is the same first step in all justification for inhumanity to our fellow man. "They aren't like us, therefore they don't feel things like we do and don't think like we do, therefore they don't deserve to live." This is just flat out not true, and the actions of the U.S. government in the region of their birth shines light on why they feel and think the way they do about americans. We have allowed our government to exploit, covertly assist when beneficial and then cut and run leaving them a barren wasteland with no hope of progress instead of showing them a better way of life through our modern society. This selfishness gives basis for their anti-american arguments, just as the models of industrial revolution factories gave justification to communist regimes as to the evils of unchecked capitalism. it doesn't make the arguments correct, but the basis of propaganda isn't to be correct, but to be persuasive.
i'll leave you with a quote i read the other day in a book that left a lasting impression on me:
"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." Heinlein
